How to find your arbitrage (from the guy who’s done it 3x) ft. Nick Kokonas
- 01Every Arbitrage Is a Time-Scale Gap, and Every Window Closes
- 02Read the Rules Nobody Else Read
- 03Pick the "Smallest, Highest Hoops" and Find the Teacher
- 04Expertise Is a Trap: Reinvent Every ~10 Years
- 05Seek Discomfort as the Signal You're Taking Enough Risk
- 06Volume of Bad Work Is the Only Path to Great Work
1. Key Themes
Every Arbitrage Is a Time-Scale Gap, and Every Window Closes
Nick's core thesis is that arbitrage isn't a financial trick but a structural gap between how fast something could happen and how fast it does. His trading arb was a 30-second paper-ticket lag; his restaurant arb was the slowness of reservations and menu pricing. He says: "I am now convinced that every arb is just about time scale." 00:00:16 On the paper process: "Well, so a trade would take place in the QQQs... And now, that 30 seconds, if I make that trade there and I can talk to the guy who's actually in the pit, bypassing that, I I know the pricing information instantly." 00:27:13 And on decay: "any arbitrage is going to be a window that closes, and they close quickly or slowly, but they're always going to close. So, the timescale of that kept getting shorter, other people figured it out, we started adding computation on to it." 00:36:48
Read the Rules Nobody Else Read
His trading arb existed because the institutions' own governing regulations were unread. "Read the rules! It sounds like a dumb thing, but read the rules. There are laws. And the CFTC had regulations that were like this thick, and all the people on the board at the Merc and the Amex and all these institutions probably never read them. They had lawyers, and lawyers probably never read them. They went on case law, they went on practice, they went on what they're used to." 00:27:57 The edge came from the boring homework: "I mean, I really did. It's really long." 00:27:58
Pick the "Smallest, Highest Hoops" and Find the Teacher
Nick deliberately targeted domains that were hard to understand and hard to reach, so few would follow. "If you got a big hoop on the ground, it's easy to jump in. If there's something 30 ft in the air, and it's tiny, you know, and you got to figure out how to get up there, not a lot of people are going to follow you up there." 00:16:08 Getting there meant finding the one right mentor and paying for access: "I literally said, 'I'll pay you to work for you.' And that got his attention." 00:17:11 He also set a one-year goal ("Within a year, I need to be on a badge and trading") and hit it a week late. 00:18:05
Expertise Is a Trap: Reinvent Every ~10 Years
Nick deliberately quits things at expert level. "Expertise is such a trap, right? ... Once you get to expert level, you're screwed. Because somebody who's younger, hungrier, fresher eyes, more willing to break convention to find the new way through is going to kick your ass. So, before your ass gets kicked, you should quit." 00:20:59 He notes the incentives work against this: "there's very little incentive, financially and otherwise, if you've had some success to break it, to quit, to go do something new and lose money for a while." 00:21:52 Shaan's framing: "he sets up a new prison of my own choosing" every decade, and Nick agrees: "Every 10 years, I've done an entirely new career." 00:06:35
Seek Discomfort as the Signal You're Taking Enough Risk
"If you wake up every day feeling great, you're not taking enough risk. If you wake up every day throwing up, you're taking too much risk. You need to feel a tingle of uncomfortableness." The line originated with his trading partner Keith Gogan during a huge short in Plug Power. 00:01:46 The point isn't anxiety for its own sake: "It's exciting to be uncomfortable in the sense of, 'Hey, we're doing something today.'" 00:00:47 His household enforces it with "ATNA" (all talk, no action), which is what pushed him to buy the vineyard property. 00:02:49
Volume of Bad Work Is the Only Path to Great Work
The recurring pattern: grind out dozens of mediocre versions to learn what great is. "Knowing what great is, is making mostly shit 99% of the time." 00:00:41 Jeff Tweedy of Wilco told him: "I have to write like two or three songs every week, because, otherwise, I won't have 12 good ones at the end of the year." 00:50:08 Shaan added Chris Rock's version ("The money is made in the day, we just happen to collect it at night") 00:50:50 and the pottery-class quantity-vs-quality story. 00:54:49 Nick's advice to young founders: "Go do it. Come back to me in 5 weeks. I don't care about your logo... Make the 50 sauces." 00:54:17
Build in Public to Manufacture Demand and Feedback
Before Alinea opened, Nick open-sourced the entire business plan on the eGullet forum ("The Alinea Project"). "We got hundreds of thousands of views. So suddenly, the press was interested." 00:59:02 Two goals: "I wanted feedback from people that might come across it, and then I wanted to drum up future customers." 00:59:35 Opening night, The New York Times critic and chef Sean Brock were there. His verdict: "There's no chance it would have been as good, no chance. That was like such a marketing feat." 01:01:51 The principle: "The more open you can be about why you're doing it, as long as it's authentic, you win, period." 01:02:05
Design Experience Like Theater: Callbacks, Stagecraft, and Magic
Nick treated dining as a staged production: callbacks ("they'll set something up at the beginning of their set... and then somehow there's a satisfying call back"), a bare "empty stage" table inspired by Stop Making Sense, and magician-style control of attention. 01:05:11 From magic books: "if you want to gain people's trust, you don't sit across from them... you will stand next to them." 01:14:12 The staff stance is "not team restaurant, team customer, team diner." 01:16:09 He also learns from adjacent industries, not within: "In fact, you try very hard not to do that." 01:10:45
Showing Up Early and Responding Instantly Compounds
His father's lesson: "Show up every day, on time, early... 'Early's on time, on time is late, and late means get the fuck out of here.'" 00:35:47 He distinguishes "showing up prepared" from "showing up unprepared, but admitting that you're unprepared. Both of those count." On responsiveness: "If you consistently do that, it's not very hard... it accrues so many benefits over time." 00:36:27
2. Contrarian Perspectives
Dynamic Pricing Is Everywhere, and Banning It Would Hurt Consumers
Against the political tide, Nick argues dynamic pricing is already universal, just slow. "Everything's dynamically priced. This table is dynamically priced. It's just really slow... Nothing's fixed." 00:45:55 On the Elizabeth Warren proposal: "what she's really saying is is that we don't want to squeeze people when bad things happen. Agreed. But the best way to do that is to dynamically price things as fast as you possibly can." 00:46:16 His restaurant logic: a Tuesday 9 p.m. table and a Saturday 7 p.m. table "should be priced differently, and they're not." 00:45:47 He even takes a dig at Uber's naming: "just call it dynamic. Like, get rid of the surge word." 00:47:09
Don't Be the Expert: Quit at the Top Before an Amateur Beats You
Conventional wisdom prizes deep expertise and long tenure. Nick says the moment you're an expert is the moment you're vulnerable to outsiders. He left a $100M+ trading year, and later a restaurant group and Tock, rather than stay. "Once you get to expert level, you're screwed." 00:20:59 His own career (philosophy major to trader to restaurateur to software founder) is the evidence: "I knew nothing about that. I was a philosophy major in college." 00:07:28
Don't Pull the Whole Arbitrage in One Day: Take Less on Purpose
After their first fiber-line trades made "a couple hundred thousand dollars. Like instantly," Nick shut it down. "We can't be so blatant. We're much better off picking their pocket a little bit for years than we are just destroying them on day one." 00:30:41 He then applied for an exchange pilot program that legitimized the setup, since regulators assumed it would take 6-8 months to wire up. Rather than maximizing the first week, he engineered political cover to preserve the edge and the business.
The Best Customer Experience Often Means Fewer Choices
Contra the "give users every option" software philosophy: "I like to build dead ends in software that every software designer hates. If you can hit every button at every page, I can't take you on the journey where I want you to go." 01:09:38 The omakase example: "in a great experience like that omakase that you had, you had no choice, it's a defined thing. And sometimes, it's great to have a lot of choice. And sometimes, it's great to just be taken on a journey." 01:10:14
Fear of the Unknown Is the Reason to Do It
On the vineyard and the wine bar: "everything in me said, 'No, I I don't want to do it, so that's why I should probably do it.'" 00:23:10 He treats low-appeal, high-friction opportunities as a screening filter, and the Sisyphus lens ("the work is the win") as the reason. 00:23:34
3. Companies Identified
Alinea
Nick's Chicago restaurant with chef Grant Achatz, which became a three-Michelin-star restaurant and was called the best restaurant in America (some say the world). Mentioned as the product of Nick's second career. "I was just like that thing I said earlier, you know, every 15 years, someone's going to come along and kick someone's ass. And I met Grant and I was like, 'Aha! We have the ass-kicker.'" 00:48:37 Its 'open-source' launch on eGullet is a model for build-in-public marketing. 00:58:32
Next (Restaurant)
Nick and Grant's follow-up concept that changes cuisine and time period every four months, opening with Paris 1906. Mentioned as a brilliant packaged concept. "As soon as we had that idea, Paris 1906, I don't need to tell you anything more." 00:52:05 "What was it like in Escoffier, 1906?" 00:52:34
Tock
Nick's reservation, ticketing, and dynamic-pricing software company, sold for hundreds of millions of dollars. Born out of his frustration with not knowing his customer. "Tock was born out of my frustration with not knowing the customer. It was a KYC thing, you know, know your customer." 00:45:26 He still sees the opportunity as unsolved: "geofenced, meaning localized, dynamic and variable pricing for time-slotted businesses is something that someone's going to make hundreds of billions of dollars with." 00:00:26 (The cold open says "hundreds of millions"; the longer passage says "hundreds of billions.")
OpenTable
Incumbent reservation software Nick positioned Tock against. Mentioned as the negative example. "That's what OpenTable was like in 2005... They wanted to intermediate the relationship between the customer and the restaurant. That was their arbitrage." 00:44:53
Jane Street
Quant trading firm whose early team built the best automated ADR arbitrage systems Nick's firm competed against around 1999. "They are incredibly smart, incredibly dedicated, fiercely independent of thought, and high integrity." 00:43:19 Early on, "the guys who had built the best robobox of doing that were the early Jane Street guys." 00:42:42
Uber
Cited for surge pricing as correct economics but wrong branding. Shaan recounted Travis Kalanick's rationale: "We need the supply to rise to meet the demand. How do you get the supply to rise? You give it an incentive that you're going to make more money." 00:46:48
Mentioned by Shaan for its practice of having engineers ship code to production on day one, parallel to Nick's day-one trade rule. 00:18:56
Native Deodorant
Brand founded by Moiz Ali, cited by Shaan as an example of obsessive self-education: "In 6 months, I'll know everything there is to know about the deodorant industry." 00:05:41
Wilco
The band, via songwriter Jeff Tweedy, used as an example of daily-grind creative output. 00:49:50
Goldman Sachs / SocGen / Merrill
Banks whose conventional job offers Nick turned down because predictability felt like "the wrong kind of prison." 00:08:53
Chicago Mercantile Exchange / American Stock Exchange / CFTC
The exchange and regulator that defined Nick's trading arena and whose unread rules enabled the arbitrage. Nick's firm "were doing a couple percent of the daily volume of the American Stock Exchange within 6 months." 00:31:46
Plug Power
The company on which Nick and Keith Gogan held "a ridiculous short position," the origin of the nausea quote. 00:01:46
eGullet
The food forum where the Alinea Project was built in public. 00:57:26
Groupon
Referenced via Andrew Mason's candid "I got fired" resignation letter, as a contrast to "spend more time with family" exits. 00:42:16
Culinary Institute of America
Where Nick gave a commencement address on grinding out 25 sauces. 00:51:39
4. People Identified
Keith Gogan
Nick's former trading partner and friend. Mentioned as the source of the "nausea" risk heuristic and the spreadsheet-savvy partner on the ETF/futures arb. "I have to give credit where credit's due, Keith Gogan, good friend of mine, former business partner." 00:01:38 On the arb: "he was in the New York side, and he we went to college together, and he was a spreadsheet guru, you know, just great math mind, and we cranked that thing up." 00:31:33
Jim Hanson
Nick's first employee, later business partner and best friend, who helped scale the trading firm to about 35 people. "my first employee became my business partner, still my best friend, Jim Hanson." 00:32:54
Grant Achatz
Chef and co-founder of Alinea. Nick's "you're the guy" moment, on the strength of his work ethic. "he was me when I was a trader. He would show up and he would stay there till 4:00 in the morning, and he would come up with the next thing." 00:49:30 The 6 a.m. sauce story: Grant had made 20+ variants of the lamb sauce, each slightly sweeter or more acidic, to find the right one with no reference taste. 00:52:56
Jeff Tweedy (Wilco)
Songwriter cited for his daily-output discipline: "I have to write like two or three songs every week, because, otherwise, I won't have 12 good ones at the end of the year." 00:50:08
Charlie Trotter
Chicago chef who "put Chicago on the map," used as the incumbent Nick believed Alinea could dethrone. 00:48:34
Sean Brock
Now a famous chef; was the first customer through Alinea's door and commented on the build-in-public thread. "he was the first customer through the door on the first day." 01:01:17
Michael Ruhlman
Food writer who tipped Nick off to the head New York Times critic being at the opening. 01:01:46
David Byrne (Talking Heads)
His Stop Making Sense concert inspired Alinea's empty-stage table concept. "the stage builds... as the world around him gets bigger, he gets literally smaller by stagecraft." 01:06:30
Francis Ford Coppola
Subject of Hearts of Darkness, which Nick rewatches yearly to recalibrate his sense of risk. "He mortgaged his house twice... I'm not really taking much risk by doing a vineyard here compared to that." 01:00:26
Travis Kalanick
Uber's founder, cited for the logic of surge pricing. 00:46:37
Elizabeth Warren
Mentioned as having tweeted for a law against dynamic pricing, the position Nick opposes. 00:46:00
Andrew Mason
Groupon founder known for his candid "I got fired" resignation letter. 00:42:21
Moiz Ali
Native Deodorant founder; example of obsessive learning. 00:05:30
Nick's Father
Greek-American grocer, entrepreneur by necessity, who taught showing up and thrift. "Pay that, it's your patriotic duty to pay that." 00:34:32
Chris Rock
Cited by Shaan for the "write jokes every morning" principle. 00:50:50
Steve Jobs
Referenced for his commencement-address three-story structure. 00:52:03
Bill Gurley
Cited for "move to the place where the shit's happening." 00:14:16
Dario Amodei and Sam Altman
Mentioned in passing as examples of leaders for whom radical transparency about their views carries real downsides. 01:02:21
Sam Parr / Shaan Puri
Hosts. Nick credits Shaan's authentic curiosity as why the podcast works: "you're genuinely curious, that's authentic. That's the secret." 01:03:45
Frank (a trading colleague)
Became a very good trader but froze for 3 weeks before making his first pit trade. 00:20:28
5. Operating Insights
Force a "Day One" Public Action to Break the Seal
Nick's rule for new pit traders: make one trade on your first day. "you have to open your mouth in front of all those people and risk looking like an idiot." 00:17:59 Frank, who skipped it, took three weeks to make a trade. Shaan's parallels (Facebook's day-one ship, his sushi day-one customer) show the same pattern. Operationalize it by requiring every new hire to ship something visible on day one.
Hire "Corporate Refugees" with Raw Aptitude and Pay Them to Learn
Rather than hiring credentialed traders, Nick spotted bright, mentally quick, miserable lawyers at dinner parties and offered "$7 an hour, and in 8 months, you can trade." He did it dozens of times and it scaled "kind of linearly" until his hourly take went from $5 to thousands. 00:25:42 Look for high-aptitude people stuck in the wrong role and build a short apprenticeship funnel.
Sell the Effect, Then Engineer the Method
Magician-written books start with "the effect" (what the audience should feel), then the method, then the craft of presentation. Nick applied this to service design. "if you read a book written by a magician... they always start with the effect." 01:13:36 Define the emotional outcome first, then reverse-engineer operations.
Don't Let Customers Self-Select Into Conflicting Challenges
"If you're going to have people eat something that looks like glass, you should put it on a plate... You can't challenge people in two directions." 01:15:31 When introducing a novel element, keep everything else familiar so the novelty is the only surprise.
Make Pricing a "Big Dumb Button" for Owners Who Don't Want Accounting
Nick's reason dynamic pricing didn't spread: restaurateurs "don't want to do accounting. You need a big dumb button that you hit once that says, 'Make more money.' And then the whole back end needs to be that." 00:48:02 Operator takeaway: abstract sophisticated optimization into a single decision.
6. Overlooked Insights
He Shut the Arb Down After One Profitable Day, and Then Got Permission to Do It Legally
Buried in the narrative is a masterclass in arbitrage durability: after the first trade made "a couple hundred thousand dollars. Like instantly," Nick shut it down because "that'd be the last $2 million we ever made." He then filed for a pilot program by showing evidence that Chicago was the natural hedge for the growing ETF class, and "once they gave me the pilot program, then I could do it in the open." 00:31:23 Converting a hidden edge into a sanctioned, exchange-approved position, while regulators believed it would take 6-8 months to build, turned a short-lived trick into a business doing "a couple percent of the daily volume of the American Stock Exchange within 6 months." 00:31:46 The lesson is that the highest-value move after finding an arb is making it politically and structurally legitimate before it's discovered.
The Operational Failure Came from Applying Edge to Businesses He Didn't Understand
After the $100M+ year, expansion into distressed small exchanges ("some 30-year-old dude with a computer is telling these guys who've been there for 40 years like, 'Here's how we're going to run your business now'") failed not because the edge vanished but because "we didn't know how to build a layer of management and accounting." 00:37:35 Combined with veterans retiring after one windfall year and shrinking payouts, it shows how a single-arb firm unravels through people economics rather than market economics. For founders, an arb is not a company, and the human-capital and management layer must be built before the edge decays.